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Post by shaolinfighter on Oct 23, 2014 8:05:57 GMT -8
The bottom line is lakers would likely be better today if Kobe's ego wasn't larger than life driving potential FA away and if he had taken a Duncan or Nowitzki approach to negotiating his last contract keeping eye on the ring as opposed to on the $ I don't care about Kyle Korver and Spencer Hawes. Role players scared to work hard aren't welcome on a Kobe Bryant team. Want players with competitive fire
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Post by samadams10 on Oct 23, 2014 8:09:01 GMT -8
I don't like the greed either Sam, but I look at ownership as the ultimate greedy men in this league Why the bias? My point is Kobe is smart enough to know he's subject to CBA. He does not agree with it but it is what it is at this juncture and the agreement within which he will sunset his career. So yea the owners are greedy for sure. Agreement was ratified by players union. So the question is do you want to win or see the star players eat up a lions share of the cap leading to lousy team performance.
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Post by samadams10 on Oct 23, 2014 8:10:25 GMT -8
The bottom line is lakers would likely be better today if Kobe's ego wasn't larger than life driving potential FA away and if he had taken a Duncan or Nowitzki approach to negotiating his last contract keeping eye on the ring as opposed to on the $ I don't care about Kyle Korver and Spencer Hawes. Role players scared to work hard aren't welcome on a Kobe Bryant team. Want players with competitive fire I agree - I don't either. Competitive players with Kobe fire come with a larger price tag than Korver and hawes.
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Post by asweetcalamity on Oct 23, 2014 8:57:59 GMT -8
The bottom line is lakers would likely be better today if Kobe's ego wasn't larger than life driving potential FA away and if he had taken a Duncan or Nowitzki approach to negotiating his last contract keeping eye on the ring as opposed to on the $ I know a lot of you will jump on this post- to be clear - yes Jim and Mitch are largely responsible but Kobe is in the mix as well at least 20 percent. Again, would you be anxious to take an even more giant paycut to commit yourself to Jim Buss? It's easy to say Kobe should have pulled a Duncan, but Duncan was committing to Parker and Leonard and Pop and Buford. The pieces were already in place. Kobe would have been committing to a blank slate minus Sacre and Nash, and what we all agree is an overmatched owner.
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Post by asweetcalamity on Oct 23, 2014 8:59:00 GMT -8
The frustrating thing about all this is that you can write a really compelling ,salacious article about the downfall of the Lakers without resorting to the disingenuous tactics that Abbot did.
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Post by shaolinfighter on Oct 23, 2014 9:22:10 GMT -8
The frustrating thing about all this is that you can write a really compelling ,salacious article about the downfall of the Lakers without resorting to the disingenuous tactics that Abbot did. Exactly right. I could have written a better article than that in 10 minutes and paint a much more honest and clear picture.
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Post by samadams10 on Oct 23, 2014 9:27:33 GMT -8
The bottom line is lakers would likely be better today if Kobe's ego wasn't larger than life driving potential FA away and if he had taken a Duncan or Nowitzki approach to negotiating his last contract keeping eye on the ring as opposed to on the $ I know a lot of you will jump on this post- to be clear - yes Jim and Mitch are largely responsible but Kobe is in the mix as well at least 20 percent. Again, would you be anxious to take an even more giant paycut to commit yourself to Jim Buss? It's easy to say Kobe should have pulled a Duncan, but Duncan was committing to Parker and Leonard and Pop and Buford. The pieces were already in place. Kobe would have been committing to a blank slate minus Sacre and Nash, and what we all agree is an overmatched owner. Why not? Some would argue that he pulled off Paul and Dwight with not much. It's stupid that he offered Kobe so much to begin with and the lions share of the blame falls on him, but it would be nice to see some reports on how Kobe gained assurances that a winning combination could be placed on the floor and if the odds are better of that happening by waiting until free agency. The 20 pct Kobe factor - he's the face of his franchise after all. But yes most blame still on buss.
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Post by samadams10 on Oct 23, 2014 9:29:52 GMT -8
The frustrating thing about all this is that you can write a really compelling ,salacious article about the downfall of the Lakers without resorting to the disingenuous tactics that Abbot did. Exactly right. I could have written a better article than that in 10 minutes and paint a much more honest and clear picture. No doubt the article stinks. There are small slivers of facts in it though. But these facts will be ignored because the author has no credibility because of his extreme views. The article was written purely for entertainment value to appease to laker and Kobe haters.
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Post by history2b on Oct 23, 2014 10:21:26 GMT -8
I don't like the greed either Sam, but I look at ownership as the ultimate greedy men in this league Why the bias? My point is Kobe is smart enough to know he's subject to CBA. He does not agree with it but it is what it is at this juncture and the agreement within which he will sunset his career. So yea the owners are greedy for sure. Agreement was ratified by players union. So the question is do you want to win or see the star players eat up a lions share of the cap leading to lousy team performance. I think that's completely irrational. The people employed to manage the cap and know it, who also will be the ones to go out and figure out how to spend the rest of it, Kobe's supposed to take their offer and revise it for the cap? Makes no sense. I'd be with you if Kobe demanded the money. I'd be with you if he rejected the idea of waiting to possibly take less. But the fact is the people (and there are a lot of them) who are in charge of making these decisions made it preemptively.
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Post by samadams10 on Oct 23, 2014 10:25:50 GMT -8
Why the bias? My point is Kobe is smart enough to know he's subject to CBA. He does not agree with it but it is what it is at this juncture and the agreement within which he will sunset his career. So yea the owners are greedy for sure. Agreement was ratified by players union. So the question is do you want to win or see the star players eat up a lions share of the cap leading to lousy team performance. I think that's completely irrational. The people employed to manage the cap and know it, who also will be the ones to go out and figure out how to spend the rest of it, Kobe's supposed to take their offer and revise it for the cap? Makes no sense. I'd be with you if Kobe demanded the money. I'd be with you if he rejected the idea of waiting to possibly take less. But the fact is the people (and there are a lot of them) who are in charge of making these decisions made it preemptively. I agree that ppl responsible for cap are jim and Mitch. Which is why they're primarily culpable. Saying that Kobe's not responsible At All is like saying Kobe's stupid and does not understand the cap. I don't think Kobe's stupid.
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Post by asweetcalamity on Oct 23, 2014 11:07:35 GMT -8
Again, would you be anxious to take an even more giant paycut to commit yourself to Jim Buss? It's easy to say Kobe should have pulled a Duncan, but Duncan was committing to Parker and Leonard and Pop and Buford. The pieces were already in place. Kobe would have been committing to a blank slate minus Sacre and Nash, and what we all agree is an overmatched owner. Why not? Some would argue that he pulled off Paul and Dwight with not much. It's stupid that he offered Kobe so much to begin with and the lions share of the blame falls on him, but it would be nice to see some reports on how Kobe gained assurances that a winning combination could be placed on the floor and if the odds are better of that happening by waiting until free agency. The 20 pct Kobe factor - he's the face of his franchise after all. But yes most blame still on buss. I'm not trying to hammer you- you're being fair and measured assigning mutual blame Isn't the very fact that they offered Kobe the giant contract proof enough that they don't have a grip on modern teambuilding? Combined with the subsequent swing-and-miss summer 2014 I think it's self-evident. .
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Post by samadams10 on Oct 23, 2014 11:39:45 GMT -8
Why not? Some would argue that he pulled off Paul and Dwight with not much. It's stupid that he offered Kobe so much to begin with and the lions share of the blame falls on him, but it would be nice to see some reports on how Kobe gained assurances that a winning combination could be placed on the floor and if the odds are better of that happening by waiting until free agency. The 20 pct Kobe factor - he's the face of his franchise after all. But yes most blame still on buss. I'm not trying to hammer you- you're being fair and measured assigning mutual blame Isn't the very fact that they offered Kobe the giant contract proof enough that they don't have a grip on modern teambuilding? Combined with the subsequent swing-and-miss summer 2014 I think it's self-evident. . Absolutely agree. In fact I'm not even assigning mutual responsibility - mostly it's the bonehead FO. I'm just having trouble with the position that Kobe was unaware and was an innocent bystander in the demise. I believe Kobe to be one of the smartest players in the league if not THE smartest - surely he had some sense of where Jim and Mitch were driving the franchise and he could've spoken up about his commitment to winning with a worthy roster before signing the dotted line - Is all I'm saying. While there's definitely merit to the argument that anyone would do the same - take the money and run if I'm working for a bonehead owner, it also means that I've given up and I know that Kobe's not a quitter. I'm puzzled as to why he's not making a bigger deal about this pathetic line up he's been given to work with and instead rather keeps commenting in how underpaid he is. I don't get it.
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Post by asweetcalamity on Oct 23, 2014 11:56:00 GMT -8
I think at this late stage in the game, he might have, not different priorities, but MORE priorities. I think he views himself a an elder statesman of the league. I haven't seen him complain about just his salary but more about the give and take between players/owners and the burden superstars have. Maybe he knows he probably can't win another title, and one way for him to further advance his legacy is to be outspoken on players' rights. He's won titles and he's only got a few years left so he is more capable of taking a philosophical stand against the owners as compared to guys who want to be employed for another 10 years.
I keep saying it, but the system we have designed oddly singles out the "greed" of millionaires wanting more money and to be paid their fair share from billionaires. In most other fields, we would side with labor. In sports for some reason we side with management.
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Post by shaolinfighter on Oct 23, 2014 12:00:35 GMT -8
I'm not trying to hammer you- you're being fair and measured assigning mutual blame Isn't the very fact that they offered Kobe the giant contract proof enough that they don't have a grip on modern teambuilding? Combined with the subsequent swing-and-miss summer 2014 I think it's self-evident. . Absolutely agree. In fact I'm not even assigning mutual responsibility - mostly it's the bonehead FO. I'm just having trouble with the position that Kobe was unaware and was an innocent bystander in the demise. I believe Kobe to be one of the smartest players in the league if not THE smartest - surely he had some sense of where Jim and Mitch were driving the franchise and he could've spoken up about his commitment to winning with a worthy roster before signing the dotted line - Is all I'm saying. While there's definitely merit to the argument that anyone would do the same - take the money and run if I'm working for a bonehead owner, it also means that I've given up and I know that Kobe's not a quitter. I'm puzzled as to why he's not making a bigger deal about this pathetic line up he's been given to work with and instead rather keeps commenting in how underpaid he is. I don't get it. It's been said multiple times that they were able to convince Kobe they could still put together a good team around him. The real question there is "How on earth did they convince him they could still build a team around him?" I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation. Obviously they aren't going to talk openly about that conversation and what exactly was said and what exactly the plan was/is. That would be giving away business plans that the rest of the league loves to keep us from accomplishing.
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Post by dyjon54 on Oct 23, 2014 12:04:57 GMT -8
Absolutely agree. In fact I'm not even assigning mutual responsibility - mostly it's the bonehead FO. I'm just having trouble with the position that Kobe was unaware and was an innocent bystander in the demise. I believe Kobe to be one of the smartest players in the league if not THE smartest - surely he had some sense of where Jim and Mitch were driving the franchise and he could've spoken up about his commitment to winning with a worthy roster before signing the dotted line - Is all I'm saying. While there's definitely merit to the argument that anyone would do the same - take the money and run if I'm working for a bonehead owner, it also means that I've given up and I know that Kobe's not a quitter. I'm puzzled as to why he's not making a bigger deal about this pathetic line up he's been given to work with and instead rather keeps commenting in how underpaid he is. I don't get it. It's been said multiple times that they were able to convince Kobe they could still put together a good team around him. The real question there is "How on earth did they convince him they could still build a team around him?" I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation. Obviously they aren't going to talk openly about that conversation and what exactly was said and what exactly the plan was/is. That would be giving away business plans that the rest of the league loves to keep us from accomplishing. I'm pretty sure this was step A in plan B. Step B is what we are waiting for
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Post by shaolinfighter on Oct 23, 2014 12:34:44 GMT -8
Yup^
Did the "Plan A" blow up in their faces this past off season? Doubt that Melo/Bron were in their stated plans to Kobe, even if they went through the motions of contacting them in FA anyways. That was apparently "Plan A" though (publicly at least) because "Plan B" was spoken of being now in action after James/Melo finished their decisions.
Has the plan been revised/altered at all since the start of "Plan B" with the unforeseen availability and subsequent acquisition of Lin, getting Julius Randle in the draft? Probably. Draft was a crapshoot, and Lin was made available out of nowhere because of the Rockets trying to make room.
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Post by lakerpanther on Oct 23, 2014 12:59:07 GMT -8
It's been said multiple times that they were able to convince Kobe they could still put together a good team around him. The real question there is "How on earth did they convince him they could still build a team around him?" I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation. Obviously they aren't going to talk openly about that conversation and what exactly was said and what exactly the plan was/is. That would be giving away business plans that the rest of the league loves to keep us from accomplishing. I'm pretty sure this was step A in plan B. Step B is what we are waiting for STEP B is a fuckin blank slate, Mitch has been hinting at it for awhile now, which is pure bullshit, but that's just my opinion
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Post by dyjon54 on Oct 23, 2014 13:38:03 GMT -8
Yup^ Did the "Plan A" blow up in their faces this past off season? Doubt that Melo/Bron were in their stated plans to Kobe, even if they went through the motions of contacting them in FA anyways. That was apparently "Plan A" though (publicly at least) because "Plan B" was spoken of being now in action after James/Melo finished their decisions. Has the plan been revised/altered at all since the start of "Plan B" with the unforeseen availability and subsequent acquisition of Lin, getting Julius Randle in the draft? Probably. Draft was a crapshoot, and Lin was made available out of nowhere because of the Rockets trying to make room. Something is in the works I'm sure. I will be a Lil surprised if nothing happens trade deadline or next summer. Won't be disappointed though.
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Post by samadams10 on Oct 23, 2014 14:28:09 GMT -8
Yea I'd love to have been a fly on that wall as well. Kobe got convinced so easily by two fools promising glory days.? I don't buy it. Plus even if the plan materialized with melo becoming a laker, was this team going to be a contender? I don't think so. More cap space was needed to sign a melo type plus another star or two solid players. The point of lock Kobe in by paying him and shutting him up so that he can fill staples sears before he realizes this mess is making sense in hindsight. Only two outcomes - Kobe got taken for a ride by a smart FO (oxymoron) or Kobe says fuck it this FO sucks, take the dough and chill (more likely scenario).
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Post by asweetcalamity on Oct 23, 2014 14:34:24 GMT -8
We are well into plan G at this point.
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