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Post by samadams10 on Mar 11, 2020 16:41:37 GMT -8
I’ll keep it simple. I will vote for anyone who will beat Trump. I will vote for any Democrat running for Congress that will beat their Republican opponents. We need to get rid of this administration and their cronies. But I have a hard time believing Bernie can do this. Then again, I thought Obama didn’t have a chance to be President, so what do I know. Bernie’s done. The DNC squashed that movement as soon as he won Nevada. It’s Democratic establishment vs Radicial insurgent far right populist Republican. That’s the war and it will imo make many people stay home and not vote. That's what worries me too. Far right voters staying home but as you noted. Warren on the ticket could alleviate that. I like klobuchar on the ticket and the better choice but that will keep the bernie bros home.
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Post by history2b on Mar 11, 2020 17:10:33 GMT -8
Bernie’s done. The DNC squashed that movement as soon as he won Nevada. It’s Democratic establishment vs Radicial insurgent far right populist Republican. That’s the war and it will imo make many people stay home and not vote. That's what worries me too. Far right voters staying home but as you noted. Warren on the ticket could alleviate that. I like klobuchar on the ticket and the better choice but that will keep the bernie bros home. Klobuchar is the most clear cut Republican of all the candidates. She is for funding Trump’s border wall for crying out loud. She has some upper mid west appeal but I don’t think her addition to a Biden ticket does anything. She votes in favor of Trumps policies and judges in the Senate more than almost every other Democratic senator. Of course the majority of Americans don’t know that or bother to fact check so it’s possible it could not matter but to the Sanders movement it will likely matter. His movement represented the largest base on non whites of all parties, most significantly in the Latino American community. His main constituency is nurses and public school teachers. The bullshit narrative that his movement is “bros” is false, and can be traced back to Hillary Clinton’s propaganda machine. Most people won’t this but it was also her propaganda machine that spawned the unsubstantiated claim that Obama was a Muslim and a radical born African back in 2008. Here we are 12 years later with another bullshit lie perpetuating through media about Bernie and his bros.
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hackashaq
::| Basketball Guru |::
Posts: 3,292
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Post by hackashaq on Mar 11, 2020 17:47:38 GMT -8
That's what worries me too. Far right voters staying home but as you noted. Warren on the ticket could alleviate that. I like klobuchar on the ticket and the better choice but that will keep the bernie bros home. Klobuchar is the most clear cut Republican of all the candidates. She is for funding Trump’s border wall for crying out loud. She has some upper mid west appeal but I don’t think her addition to a Biden ticket does anything. She votes in favor of Trumps policies and judges in the Senate more than almost every other Democratic senator. Of course the majority of Americans don’t know that or bother to fact check so it’s possible it could not matter but to the Sanders movement it will likely matter. His movement represented the largest base on non whites of all parties, most significantly in the Latino American community. His main constituency is nurses and public school teachers. The bullshit narrative that his movement is “bros” is false, and can be traced back to Hillary Clinton’s propaganda machine. Most people won’t this but it was also her propaganda machine that spawned the unsubstantiated claim that Obama was a Muslim and a radical born African back in 2008. Here we are 12 years later with another bullshit lie perpetuating through media about Bernie and his bros. Stacey Abrams and Sally Yates are the top names being mentioned as VP choice.
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Post by lakeshow on Mar 11, 2020 18:27:55 GMT -8
He may or may not 2b, but this has to come down to those who are part of the Democratic base (and hopefully some Republicans too) to come to the pragmatic reality that intra party ideological battles will undermine the goal of getting Trump out of office. If Biden doesn’t reach out to the Sander supporters (and vice versa if Sanders is the nominee) and if folks don’t give them their support at election time, how short sighted is that??? Now is not the time to not see the forrest from the trees. Trump is the greatest and has been the greatest threat to democracy. Anybody should be preferred to him in office. Anybody. I think it would be clearly idiotic for anyone who claims they don’t like Trump but because they’re butthurt that their candidate was not the nominee (again whether it is Sanders or Biden) that they’re not going to vote or worst vote for Trump or a third party candidate. I’m a registered independent voter so I got no attachment to either party, but Trump can do way more damage than either Biden or Sanders. Trust me T, he won’t unify the party. I promise you that. The DNC machine does not do that, it tells people to shut up and get back in line and it will do the same this time. No ifs ands or buts. They will pick someone who maybe panders to identity politics women who simply want a female candidate which is why I assume it will be Harris or possibly Klobuchar. The excuse that intra party politics splitting the base is the same excuse given every single election to get back in line regardless of Donald Trump. It happened in 1988 to Jessie Jackson with Michael Dukakis, to McCarthy with Hubert Humphrey in 68 and to Sanders with Hillary in 2016. Every. Single. Time. It resulted in a loss by Democrats. You can’t lecture people into voting the “right way” it just doesn’t work that way. Factually speaking we have a large disaffected voting base in America. More than half of all eligible voters don’t vote. There are reasons for this: some of it is voter suppression but a lot of it is the cynical view from Americans that their vote does not matter and won’t lead to meaningful change. And they’re right for the most part. The Democrats and Republicans are essentially 1 party now; they both serve corporate power first. They are 90-95% aligned on policy but play up that 5% difference to create an illusion of choice. Imo Democrats are just the ones who don’t want to be labeled racist, even if the policies they support with their vote are in fact racist. Consider the strategy that backfired over impeachment. We disagreed on Pelosi’s plan back in December because it was weak, shielding the majority of Trump’s crimes from accountibility all to play up 2 half assed charges relating to hurting the Democratic party. That choice illustrated everything to me. For others it didn’t. Trump’s approval ratings hit new highs after the Senate cleared him. The 2nd major failure on the part of the Dems since his election. That 3rd failure will be middle of the road Joe, with the DNC telling Americans your choices are a far right neo fascist authoritarian or a Center right corporate shill. That’s democracy in America today. And it will fail unless the economy tanks Trump out of office. Market cucks are already spinning the crash that’s taken place in these last 2 weeks but we are very likely in a full blown recession now with Trump desperately looking for ways to patch the holes in the sinking ship. Can he continue to bullshit pea brained shit gibbon no fact Republicans? Unless it really sinks I think he probably can. Brotha 2b, It's real simple brother. If it comes down to Biden and Trump who are you going to vote for? I'm going to vote for Biden (or if it happens to be Sanders) I will vote for him. Regardless of the merit of your argument, the real monster is currently occupying the White House. The only thing that matters to me is getting him out of office. Period
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hackashaq
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Posts: 3,292
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Post by hackashaq on Mar 11, 2020 18:36:19 GMT -8
I have to believe that if Biden and Trump run, Democrats from all ranges will vote for Biden.
I just feel this year is not the one to experiment on ideology. We need to get rid of this orange idiot. Then we can squabble about how left or centrist the Democratic party will go.
There is really too much at stake right now.
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Post by history2b on Mar 11, 2020 19:08:24 GMT -8
Trust me T, he won’t unify the party. I promise you that. The DNC machine does not do that, it tells people to shut up and get back in line and it will do the same this time. No ifs ands or buts. They will pick someone who maybe panders to identity politics women who simply want a female candidate which is why I assume it will be Harris or possibly Klobuchar. The excuse that intra party politics splitting the base is the same excuse given every single election to get back in line regardless of Donald Trump. It happened in 1988 to Jessie Jackson with Michael Dukakis, to McCarthy with Hubert Humphrey in 68 and to Sanders with Hillary in 2016. Every. Single. Time. It resulted in a loss by Democrats. You can’t lecture people into voting the “right way” it just doesn’t work that way. Factually speaking we have a large disaffected voting base in America. More than half of all eligible voters don’t vote. There are reasons for this: some of it is voter suppression but a lot of it is the cynical view from Americans that their vote does not matter and won’t lead to meaningful change. And they’re right for the most part. The Democrats and Republicans are essentially 1 party now; they both serve corporate power first. They are 90-95% aligned on policy but play up that 5% difference to create an illusion of choice. Imo Democrats are just the ones who don’t want to be labeled racist, even if the policies they support with their vote are in fact racist. Consider the strategy that backfired over impeachment. We disagreed on Pelosi’s plan back in December because it was weak, shielding the majority of Trump’s crimes from accountibility all to play up 2 half assed charges relating to hurting the Democratic party. That choice illustrated everything to me. For others it didn’t. Trump’s approval ratings hit new highs after the Senate cleared him. The 2nd major failure on the part of the Dems since his election. That 3rd failure will be middle of the road Joe, with the DNC telling Americans your choices are a far right neo fascist authoritarian or a Center right corporate shill. That’s democracy in America today. And it will fail unless the economy tanks Trump out of office. Market cucks are already spinning the crash that’s taken place in these last 2 weeks but we are very likely in a full blown recession now with Trump desperately looking for ways to patch the holes in the sinking ship. Can he continue to bullshit pea brained shit gibbon no fact Republicans? Unless it really sinks I think he probably can. Brotha 2b, It's real simple brother. If it comes down to Biden and Trump who are you going to vote for? I'm going to vote for Biden (or if it happens to be Sanders) I will vote for him. Regardless of the merit of your argument, the real monster is currently occupying the White House. The only thing that matters to me is getting him out of office. Period You know what I’ll do Brother Terence, no need to worry about me. But the majority of people don’t vote and won’t be inspired to. Only way the Dems win is if this current financial and health crisis spirals out of control on Trump. And it’s looking like it will...
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Post by lakeshow on Mar 11, 2020 19:20:16 GMT -8
Brotha 2b, It's real simple brother. If it comes down to Biden and Trump who are you going to vote for? I'm going to vote for Biden (or if it happens to be Sanders) I will vote for him. Regardless of the merit of your argument, the real monster is currently occupying the White House. The only thing that matters to me is getting him out of office. Period You know what I’ll do Brother Terence, no need to worry about me. But the majority of people don’t vote and won’t be inspired to. Only way the Dems win is if this current financial and health crisis spirals out of control on Trump. And it’s looking like it will... I'm not so sure about that. People didn't vote in 2016 because they didn't like Clinton or Trump. Neither Biden or Sanders bring out the kind of disdain people had for Clinton imo. Hillary had A TON of baggage that people just couldn't get behind. Neither of these 2 guys have that. I don't think as many people will stay home or vote for a 3rd party candidate this time around. That's not to say I don't think Trump can win again, I just don't believe that many people are going to be indifferent this time around and that could be the difference in this election.
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Post by history2b on Mar 11, 2020 19:28:14 GMT -8
You know what I’ll do Brother Terence, no need to worry about me. But the majority of people don’t vote and won’t be inspired to. Only way the Dems win is if this current financial and health crisis spirals out of control on Trump. And it’s looking like it will... I'm not so sure about that. People didn't vote in 2016 because they didn't like Clinton or Trump. Neither Biden or Sanders bring out the kind of disdain people had for Clinton imo. Hillary had A TON of baggage that people just couldn't get behind. Neither of these 2 guys have that. I don't think as many people will stay home or vote for a 3rd party candidate this time around. That's not to say I don't think Trump can win again, I just don't believe that many people are going to be indifferent this time around and that could be the difference in this election. I used to feel that way until I saw the primary voting numbers. They have been trending even lower outputs than 2016. I don’t agree that Biden doesn’t have the weaknesses Hillary had, they’re both establishment Dems and that’s the drum Trump beats the hardest. Railing against their corruption and ineptitude. We will hear more about Hunter Biden and Ukraine than anything else. They will become the Hillary emails. Trump will also go after his mental state relentlessly. I hope I’m wrong about voter turnout but I have no faith in the Democratic establishment.
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Post by shaolinfighter on Mar 11, 2020 19:32:09 GMT -8
Looks like Sanders is finished... pretty much Biden or bust now.
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Post by shaolinfighter on Mar 11, 2020 19:33:37 GMT -8
I'm not so sure about that. People didn't vote in 2016 because they didn't like Clinton or Trump. Neither Biden or Sanders bring out the kind of disdain people had for Clinton imo. Hillary had A TON of baggage that people just couldn't get behind. Neither of these 2 guys have that. I don't think as many people will stay home or vote for a 3rd party candidate this time around. That's not to say I don't think Trump can win again, I just don't believe that many people are going to be indifferent this time around and that could be the difference in this election. I used to feel that way until I saw the primary voting numbers. They have been trending even lower outputs than 2016. I don’t agree that Biden doesn’t have the weaknesses Hillary had, they’re both establishment Dems and that’s the drum Trump beats the hardest. Railing against their corruption and ineptitude. We will hear more about Hunter Biden and Ukraine than anything else. They will become the Hillary emails. Trump will also go after his mental state relentlessly. I hope I’m wrong about voter turnout but I have no faith in the Democratic establishment. Exactly how I feel. Can't help but think team Trump will eat Biden alive. That is not going to bring out more Dem votes.
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Post by lakeshow on Mar 11, 2020 19:33:50 GMT -8
I'm not so sure about that. People didn't vote in 2016 because they didn't like Clinton or Trump. Neither Biden or Sanders bring out the kind of disdain people had for Clinton imo. Hillary had A TON of baggage that people just couldn't get behind. Neither of these 2 guys have that. I don't think as many people will stay home or vote for a 3rd party candidate this time around. That's not to say I don't think Trump can win again, I just don't believe that many people are going to be indifferent this time around and that could be the difference in this election. I used to feel that way until I saw the primary voting numbers. They have been trending even lower outputs than 2016. I don’t agree that Biden doesn’t have the weaknesses Hillary had, they’re both establishment Dems and that’s the drum Trump beats the hardest. Railing against their corruption and ineptitude. We will hear more about Hunter Biden and Ukraine than anything else. They will become the Hillary emails. Trump will also go after his mental state relentlessly. I hope I’m wrong about voter turnout but I have no faith in the Democratic establishment. Fair point, but remember primaries in general don't have a high voter turnout. They'll be way more in the general election.
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Post by samadams10 on Mar 11, 2020 19:35:34 GMT -8
That's what worries me too. Far right voters staying home but as you noted. Warren on the ticket could alleviate that. I like klobuchar on the ticket and the better choice but that will keep the bernie bros home. Klobuchar is the most clear cut Republican of all the candidates. She is for funding Trump’s border wall for crying out loud. She has some upper mid west appeal but I don’t think her addition to a Biden ticket does anything. She votes in favor of Trumps policies and judges in the Senate more than almost every other Democratic senator. Of course the majority of Americans don’t know that or bother to fact check so it’s possible it could not matter but to the Sanders movement it will likely matter. His movement represented the largest base on non whites of all parties, most significantly in the Latino American community. His main constituency is nurses and public school teachers. The bullshit narrative that his movement is “bros” is false, and can be traced back to Hillary Clinton’s propaganda machine. Most people won’t this but it was also her propaganda machine that spawned the unsubstantiated claim that Obama was a Muslim and a radical born African back in 2008. Here we are 12 years later with another bullshit lie perpetuating through media about Bernie and his bros. reality is dems do need a candidate appeals to both sides. because of the electoral college. Different story of its a popular vote contest. In that regard, repubs in dem bodies may actually help. I don't know and don't think biden is a dino - democrat in name only. his gaffes and sometimes senile behavior are concerning though. Who would be your number 1 choice for Ds ticket bro 2b? Doesn't matter whether currently running or not.
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Post by samadams10 on Mar 11, 2020 19:37:43 GMT -8
You know what I’ll do Brother Terence, no need to worry about me. But the majority of people don’t vote and won’t be inspired to. Only way the Dems win is if this current financial and health crisis spirals out of control on Trump. And it’s looking like it will... I'm not so sure about that. People didn't vote in 2016 because they didn't like Clinton or Trump. Neither Biden or Sanders bring out the kind of disdain people had for Clinton imo. Hillary had A TON of baggage that people just couldn't get behind. Neither of these 2 guys have that. I don't think as many people will stay home or vote for a 3rd party candidate this time around. That's not to say I don't think Trump can win again, I just don't believe that many people are going to be indifferent this time around and that could be the difference in this election. My 2 cents - I think youre spot on about hillary and the hatred that revolved around her.
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Post by history2b on Mar 11, 2020 19:41:58 GMT -8
Klobuchar is the most clear cut Republican of all the candidates. She is for funding Trump’s border wall for crying out loud. She has some upper mid west appeal but I don’t think her addition to a Biden ticket does anything. She votes in favor of Trumps policies and judges in the Senate more than almost every other Democratic senator. Of course the majority of Americans don’t know that or bother to fact check so it’s possible it could not matter but to the Sanders movement it will likely matter. His movement represented the largest base on non whites of all parties, most significantly in the Latino American community. His main constituency is nurses and public school teachers. The bullshit narrative that his movement is “bros” is false, and can be traced back to Hillary Clinton’s propaganda machine. Most people won’t this but it was also her propaganda machine that spawned the unsubstantiated claim that Obama was a Muslim and a radical born African back in 2008. Here we are 12 years later with another bullshit lie perpetuating through media about Bernie and his bros. reality is dems do need a candidate appeals to both sides. because of the electoral college. Different story of its a popular vote contest. In that regard, repubs in dem bodies may actually help. I don't know and don't think biden is a dino - democrat in name only. his gaffes and sometimes senile behavior are concerning though. Who would be your number 1 choice for Ds ticket bro 2b? Doesn't matter whether currently running or not. I think the Democratic establishment taking Sanders grassroots movement and multiplying it with Democratic support would have been the way. But they can’t do that. They attacked it as extreme because it would have taxed the rich and corporate elite that avoids paying taxes.
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Post by samadams10 on Mar 11, 2020 19:47:56 GMT -8
reality is dems do need a candidate appeals to both sides. because of the electoral college. Different story of its a popular vote contest. In that regard, repubs in dem bodies may actually help. I don't know and don't think biden is a dino - democrat in name only. his gaffes and sometimes senile behavior are concerning though. Who would be your number 1 choice for Ds ticket bro 2b? Doesn't matter whether currently running or not. I think the Democratic establishment taking Sanders grassroots movement and multiplying it with Democratic support would have been the way. But they can’t do that. They attacked it as extreme because it would have taxed the rich and corporate elite that avoids paying taxes. But don't you think that sanders type agenda would've been stalled by dems? The rich are indeed powerful and control policy through lobbies. too difficult for one individual to go after even with the power of executive IMHO.
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Post by history2b on Mar 11, 2020 19:59:44 GMT -8
I think the Democratic establishment taking Sanders grassroots movement and multiplying it with Democratic support would have been the way. But they can’t do that. They attacked it as extreme because it would have taxed the rich and corporate elite that avoids paying taxes. But don't you think that sanders type agenda would've been stalled by dems? The rich are indeed powerful and control policy through lobbies. too difficult for one individual to go after even with the power of executive IMHO. It is the challenge of a Sanders agenda for sure but what’s the alternative? Let corporate power continue to control everything, while working people continue to lose, wealth, security, retirement and health? It’s the only country on earth that operates the way it does for corporate power. But yes that same corporate interest beat back the populist movement in favor of its own puppet, so that in the case of Biden winning we can go back to the business as usual approach to America. One whose trends towards greater worker insecurity, widening inequality and more super rich. It’s a path to nowhere that will have increasingly severe consequences the longer it extends.
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Post by samadams10 on Mar 11, 2020 20:29:41 GMT -8
But don't you think that sanders type agenda would've been stalled by dems? The rich are indeed powerful and control policy through lobbies. too difficult for one individual to go after even with the power of executive IMHO. It is the challenge of a Sanders agenda for sure but what’s the alternative? Let corporate power continue to control everything, while working people continue to lose, wealth, security, retirement and health? It’s the only country on earth that operates the way it does for corporate power. But yes that same corporate interest beat back the populist movement in favor of its own puppet, so that in the case of Biden winning we can go back to the business as usual approach to America. One whose trends towards greater worker insecurity, widening inequality and more super rich. It’s a path to nowhere that will have increasingly severe consequences the longer it extends. absolutely right to have those concerns. Its worrisome. will probably boil down to lesser of two evils again in nov
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hackashaq
::| Basketball Guru |::
Posts: 3,292
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Post by hackashaq on Mar 12, 2020 1:29:06 GMT -8
Like or not, the general election has turned into a battle of winning states like Ohio, Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania.
If the Democratic Party thinks it can win those states with Bernie, then more power to them.
But that is not the case. It's just not reality right now, as much as that hurts to say.
Had there been no filibuster, Obama could have changed the narrative for the next 20-30 years, but he could not set any agenda like Reagan was able to do in the 80's. Reagan became some kind of God, and Obama may be forgotten.
These are dicey times, and we just need the barbarians out of the gate.
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Post by lakeshow on Mar 12, 2020 11:56:21 GMT -8
Like or not, the general election has turned into a battle of winning states like Ohio, Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania.If the Democratic Party thinks it can win those states with Bernie, then more power to them. But that is not the case. It's just not reality right now, as much as that hurts to say. Had there been no filibuster, Obama could have changed the narrative for the next 20-30 years, but he could not set any agenda like Reagan was able to do in the 80's. Reagan became some kind of God, and Obama may be forgotten. These are dicey times, and we just need the barbarians out of the gate. This has always been the case in every election since the implementation of the electoral college. The only thing that has varied over time is the particular states that matter the most. Exactly why this undemocratic piece of garbage process has to end.
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Post by lakeshow on Mar 13, 2020 8:45:41 GMT -8
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