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Post by lakeshow on Dec 7, 2016 21:20:31 GMT -8
The minimum wage should support a single worker but the problem is you have minimum wage workers who have families to feed. Unless they are going to work 2 or 3 jobs, they need an hourly wage that will keep food on the table. I get that. At the same time, I don't believe that small businesses should be forced to carry that burden. If a small business owner has to pay an unskilled worker $15-$20/hr, that's going to have a dramatic effect on the prices of goods and services and in the labor market. This is economics 101. I'm not a pro-business at all costs guy, but I am a realist and I have friends who own small businesses who care for their employees but who are also struggling to keep their doors open because of over regulation. They have had to cut hours of their employees just to keep all of them employed. I think certain state minimum wages should absolutely be increased in certain parts of the nation, but I think this is something that should be given careful thought before imposing any economic burdens on an important sector of the economy. Full time employees should earn a living wage. Anything less in the richest country in the world is pathetic. Businesses that can't survive aren't meant to be. Sucks for some, but survival of the fittest. Plus, giving the bottom rung of the employed more income will allow them to afford price increases on products. As far as single workers with families, there's a way to avoid that in most cases. Don't start a family you can't afford. $15/hour is $2400/month gross, and probably about half of that once taxes/ss (about 25%) and medical are taken out (especially for small businesses that can't afford to absorb a large percentage of medical coverage). How far will $1200/month get a single person? Rent will be at least half of that, leaving $150/week for food, transportation, utilities, etc.
Yes, don't start a family you can't afford. I agree.
But the people who complain the most about a higher minimum wages are people who have families.
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Post by lakeshow on Dec 7, 2016 21:27:13 GMT -8
1. To tell you the truth Sam, I don't know because I haven't studied how the most industrialized nations in the world handle higher education costs for students. I haven't studied it or looked at it so I can't answer that question. I don't know what the quality of a higher education is in those countries is either. I wouldn't mind knowing though. But what I do know is that an education in one place, doesn't mean it's the same in another.
2. Is a college education a right? No. It is a priviledge. Healthcare, at least that's debatable. If a college education is a RIGHT, why shouldn't owning a home be a right, why shouldn't owning a car be a right, why shouldn't having a job be a right. I mean we can go and on about what we think people should have a right to. I believe that people who work hard and do things the right way shouldn't be living below the poverty line, at the same time it cuts both ways Sam. Just because we live in a wealthy nation, doesn't and shouldn't entitle people to a "right" to everything.
3. As for everything else you said, I've already agreed that I believe a more educated society benefits everyone including the nation. I don't have all the answers to making a college education more affordable, but I hope there will soon be more realistic options for people who do want to go to college.
There's strong evidence that education levels in Scandinavian countries is pretty strong. Std of living high too. If education is not a right for those who want it, why not eliminate the public school system and give the rich some tax breaks? Why is a ged so important that it's free? Definitely does cut both ways. Problem with education is two fold. One it's treated as a privilege - for the wealthy and 2 college costs are out of control. That's just not investing in the future. Whereas a high school diploma was a basic necessity a few decades ago, it's a 4 year college education today for the most part. There's nothing to suggest that people who want a college education can't get one Sam. Sure education costs need to be addressed and I'm all for making changes, but it can be a reality if people are hungry for it and want it.
It may not be the traditional route of high school to a university, but there are plenty of people who make it happen with little resources.
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Post by samadams10 on Dec 8, 2016 6:53:47 GMT -8
There's strong evidence that education levels in Scandinavian countries is pretty strong. Std of living high too. If education is not a right for those who want it, why not eliminate the public school system and give the rich some tax breaks? Why is a ged so important that it's free? Definitely does cut both ways. Problem with education is two fold. One it's treated as a privilege - for the wealthy and 2 college costs are out of control. That's just not investing in the future. Whereas a high school diploma was a basic necessity a few decades ago, it's a 4 year college education today for the most part. There's nothing to suggest that people who want a college education can't get one Sam. Sure education costs need to be addressed and I'm all for making changes, but it can be a reality if people are hungry for it and want it.
It may not be the traditional route of high school to a university, but there are plenty of people who make it happen with little resources.
Agree T, but there's definitely plenty who get discouraged and never pursue it and it's a shame when you can get a good govt subsidized education in the third world and in many countries superior education in math and sciences and engineering but not in the United States. Good discussion T. I think we both have valid points and I don't know if there's a right answer. Check this out if you have time - be curious to know what your thoughts are as an educator. Sounds good but I'm sure it has flaws. hechingerreport.org/how-finland-broke-every-rule-and-created-a-top-school-system/
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hackashaq
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Post by hackashaq on Dec 8, 2016 15:24:07 GMT -8
I'm not an expert in education and what systems work and what don't, but at least in most of the industrialized world, education is absolutely the bedrock of everything else. Governments tend to understand that without at least the basic level of competence in math, science, reading and writing, there is no hope in maintaining a growing and self sustaining society and economy. And if you actually challenge students to rise above mere competence, they will also respond...making the chances that as many people as possible become contributing members of society better.
But in fairness, the US is 300M strong. Not sure what percentage of that is youth, but just assuming it's 1/3 of the total, that's 100M students at all different levels that need to be "mentored" as well as educated. It's a problem on a scale no Scandinavian country has to deal with.
In addition the cultural and economic diversity of the population also leads to challenges other countries don't have to face (and in countries where the do have to deal with this, England, Germany, France, success has not been uniform).
I guess I'm trying to say that the US needs a unique solution, something more flexible given the wide variety of challenges.
But I also believe education and society are closely related. If society continues to just pay lip service to the importance of education, but really don't give a damn about what children are exposed to, what they see and what they read, if parents refuse to be actively involved, and the only solution being offered is to privatize everything so some corporation can earn a buck off your kids....nothing will change, and things will digress.
That movie, Idicoracy, used to be funny. Now it's downright scary. It seems we are headed toward that destiny.
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Post by samadams10 on Dec 8, 2016 17:10:05 GMT -8
The US population is certainly much more than scandinavian countries but you'd have to agree that production and land mass and resources etc are also more than proportionally greater. Indeed a unique solution is warranted but it's not impossible. We spend more on defense than the next 8 countries combined. Highest GDP in the world not factoring in PPP which China has us beat on and our population has a stronger youthful workforce than EU, china, Japan etc where populations are aging.
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Post by bigtex34 on Dec 9, 2016 20:57:45 GMT -8
The US population is certainly much more than scandinavian countries but you'd have to agree that production and land mass and resources etc are also more than proportionally greater. Indeed a unique solution is warranted but it's not impossible. We spend more on defense than the next 8 countries combined. Highest GDP in the world not factoring in PPP which China has us beat on and our population has a stronger youthful workforce than EU, china, Japan etc where populations are aging. Impossible to compare Scandinavian countries to the U.S. Hell Norway is smaller than LA. Let's add 300 plus million of every race an creed to any of those countries and see how they do. The answer to medical care and education sure as hell is not more government. That is why we are fucked in the first place. Socialized society does not work on our scale. As far as GDP...we are still almost twice China, although the last two presidents have gone ignorant in the spending department. Actually Sam, we spend about as much as the next 17 countries combined on military. It is high time to quit throwing billions away every month in fanatical areas of the world. Screw Syria...let Russia have it.
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Post by samadams10 on Dec 9, 2016 21:56:33 GMT -8
The US population is certainly much more than scandinavian countries but you'd have to agree that production and land mass and resources etc are also more than proportionally greater. Indeed a unique solution is warranted but it's not impossible. We spend more on defense than the next 8 countries combined. Highest GDP in the world not factoring in PPP which China has us beat on and our population has a stronger youthful workforce than EU, china, Japan etc where populations are aging. Impossible to compare Scandinavian countries to the U.S. Hell Norway is smaller than LA. Let's add 300 plus million of every race an creed to any of those countries and see how they do. The answer to medical care and education sure as hell is not more government. That is why we are fucked in the first place. Socialized society does not work on our scale. As far as GDP...we are still almost twice China, although the last two presidents have gone ignorant in the spending department. Actually Sam, we spend about as much as the next 17 countries combined on military. It is high time to quit throwing billions away every month in fanatical areas of the world. Screw Syria...let Russia have it. Tex what GDP numbers are you looking at? Gdp by ppp which is meaningful per WB - databank.worldbank.org/data/download/GDP_PPP.pdfI'm not bought into this scaling - never tried it so never can conclude definitively. The big govt is bad talk is stale - why is there ever no talk of making govt more effective in working for citizens. It's always a fire gone conclusion that govt can't work but at the same time govt is key for security and defense. Why are the proponents of anti big govt not against privatizing defense forces? That can't work either. Private industry is about profit not the welfare of citizens.
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hackashaq
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Post by hackashaq on Dec 10, 2016 2:55:23 GMT -8
Impossible to compare Scandinavian countries to the U.S. Hell Norway is smaller than LA. Let's add 300 plus million of every race an creed to any of those countries and see how they do. The answer to medical care and education sure as hell is not more government. That is why we are fucked in the first place. Socialized society does not work on our scale. As far as GDP...we are still almost twice China, although the last two presidents have gone ignorant in the spending department. Actually Sam, we spend about as much as the next 17 countries combined on military. It is high time to quit throwing billions away every month in fanatical areas of the world. Screw Syria...let Russia have it. Tex what GDP numbers are you looking at? Gdp by ppp which is meaningful per WB - databank.worldbank.org/data/download/GDP_PPP.pdfI'm not bought into this scaling - never tried it so never can conclude definitively. The big govt is bad talk is stale - why is there ever no talk of making govt more effective in working for citizens. It's always a fire gone conclusion that govt can't work but at the same time govt is key for security and defense. Why are the proponents of anti big govt not against privatizing defense forces? That can't work either. Private industry is about profit not the welfare of citizens. I agree with you Sam. "Big Government" is that catch word that conservatives use to trigger thoughts of oppression...as if government is the enemy of the people. Government is not the enemy of anyone...it is the only thing holding back the ultra rich and ultra powerful from taking over all aspects of life, te economy and society.
People are, I hate to say it, inherently untrustworthy when it comes to their own self interest vs the interest of society as a whole. They are easily manipulated by talk of "greatness" and the lure of easy solutions. But those that promise these things often implement policies designed just to help themselves and their cronies.
When I graduated from college, the commencement speaker talked about civilization. He referenced a famous picture of a Serbian girl who was shot dead by a sniper lying face down in Sarajevo. Her sweetheart, a Muslim boy rushed out to save her, and he was also shot dead by a sniper. The last thing he was able to do was hold her hand as they both bled to death. That was the photo.
They were buried next to each other in the cemetary that was once the stadium for the Winter Olympics,
The commencement speaker said that civilization is not a natural thing....it doesnt just happen....it is something that is hard and needs to be worked on.....constantly. Its not might means right...ideology over charity.
I never forgot that image or those words.
But it seems we are losing that understanding....we've elected a demigo, born rich beyond anyone's dreams, promising us a paradise for all Americans. I guess we get the government we deserve...not what we need.
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Post by samadams10 on Dec 10, 2016 6:36:59 GMT -8
Tex what GDP numbers are you looking at? Gdp by ppp which is meaningful per WB - databank.worldbank.org/data/download/GDP_PPP.pdfI'm not bought into this scaling - never tried it so never can conclude definitively. The big govt is bad talk is stale - why is there ever no talk of making govt more effective in working for citizens. It's always a fire gone conclusion that govt can't work but at the same time govt is key for security and defense. Why are the proponents of anti big govt not against privatizing defense forces? That can't work either. Private industry is about profit not the welfare of citizens. I agree with you Sam. "Big Government" is that catch word that conservatives use to trigger thoughts of oppression...as if government is the enemy of the people. Government is not the enemy of anyone...it is the only thing holding back the ultra rich and ultra powerful from taking over all aspects of life, te economy and society.
People are, I hate to say it, inherently untrustworthy when it comes to their own self interest vs the interest of society as a whole. They are easily manipulated by talk of "greatness" and the lure of easy solutions. But those that promise these things often implement policies designed just to help themselves and their cronies.
When I graduated from college, the commencement speaker talked about civilization. He referenced a famous picture of a Serbian girl who was shot dead by a sniper lying face down in Sarajevo. Her sweetheart, a Muslim boy rushed out to save her, and he was also shot dead by a sniper. The last thing he was able to do was hold her hand as they both bled to death. That was the photo.
They were buried next to each other in the cemetary that was once the stadium for the Winter Olympics,
The commencement speaker said that civilization is not a natural thing....it doesnt just happen....it is something that is hard and needs to be worked on.....constantly. Its not might means right...ideology over charity.
I never forgot that image or those words.
But it seems we are losing that understanding....we've elected a demigo, born rich beyond anyone's dreams, promising us a paradise for all Americans. I guess we get the government we deserve...not what we need. The funny part is the conservative and liberal standard tag lines like big govt, party for the rich etc been going on for decades. All marketing ploys to fool the public into voting booths. No real solutions or ideas.
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Post by bigtex34 on Dec 10, 2016 9:18:16 GMT -8
GDP PPP can be misleading due to known currency manipulation by many countries (even USA). True GDP has the US at close to 20 trillion to China's 11 trillion and change.
If you take the GDP per capita, China's "wealth" rankings freefall. The USA is around 56k per person, while China is around 14k. It isn't close.
As far as less governent - absolutely I believe less government would help the US greatly. I really don't believe the US government should be the largest employer in the country. This isn't the Great Depression. The amount of people relying on the government dole is not healthy, as well as the ridiculously low labor participation rate - lowest in 4 decades.
Government is the reason college costs have skyrocketed and students leave school with suffocating debt. Our government guarantees and subsidizes college loans, thus encouraging higher costs and more loans. Government subsidizing college or business goes against free market and capitalism.
Too big to fail? That is a farce. If a business is losing money, let them fail... government bailing them out helps nobody.
Of course guys like myself that say government is a major part of the problem get painted as "no government" hacks. We need government and important safeguards and regulations. Just not the bloated, overreaching bureaucracy we have now.
Obamacare is a mess... Aetna lost over 300 million this year, as did Humana. United Health stands to lose 800 million. It won't last as it is currently working.
Will Trump make it better? Who knows. It might get worse. All I know is that the statis quo was not working, and America responded to that.
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Post by bigtex34 on Dec 10, 2016 9:38:36 GMT -8
As far as a federal minimum wage increase to 15 bucks an hour, that most on the left have called for... that would be disastrous. At the very least, minimum wages should be determined by each state. Forcing some states with a huge difference in cost of living to be lumped into all doesn't make sense. 15 might be too low for many areas in California, while in many states it would force mass layoffs and manipulations of employees and working hours.
The real solution is to better yourself if you are stuck with a minimum wage job and you are over 18. Increase your education and learn more valuable skills. People don't have a "right" to be paid more than they are worth, especially since the rest of us will ultimately be paying for it.
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Post by shopson67 on Dec 12, 2016 9:39:11 GMT -8
As far as a federal minimum wage increase to 15 bucks an hour, that most on the left have called for... that would be disastrous. At the very least, minimum wages should be determined by each state. Forcing some states with a huge difference in cost of living to be lumped into all doesn't make sense. 15 might be too low for many areas in California, while in many states it would force mass layoffs and manipulations of employees and working hours. The real solution is to better yourself if you are stuck with a minimum wage job and you are over 18. Increase your education and learn more valuable skills. People don't have a "right" to be paid more than they are worth, especially since the rest of us will ultimately be paying for it. So, the 18 year old who can't support himself with his minimum wage job is now supposed to pay for school and support himself? How is that going to happen?
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Post by Fanofish on Dec 12, 2016 10:30:11 GMT -8
As far as a federal minimum wage increase to 15 bucks an hour, that most on the left have called for... that would be disastrous. At the very least, minimum wages should be determined by each state. Forcing some states with a huge difference in cost of living to be lumped into all doesn't make sense. 15 might be too low for many areas in California, while in many states it would force mass layoffs and manipulations of employees and working hours. The real solution is to better yourself if you are stuck with a minimum wage job and you are over 18. Increase your education and learn more valuable skills. People don't have a "right" to be paid more than they are worth, especially since the rest of us will ultimately be paying for it. So, the 18 year old who can't support himself with his minimum wage job is now supposed to pay for school and support himself? How is that going to happen? Entitlement issues. How is that supposed to happen? Well, each situation is different Shop. This view that the government is supposed to answer your question "So, the 18 year old who can't support himself with his minimum wage job is now supposed to pay for school and support himself? How is that going to happen?" is a big part of the problem. The fact that you look to our government to answer that question is in fact the problem. One cannot have the benefits of capitalism/democracy and expect a socialist government to pay for their healthcare, education, food and housing. There's no perfect answer. Life's not fair. It's hard. Working through your education and paying your own way is incredibly difficult. But the people I know that did finish have the character and work ethic to succeed in this highly competitive, not very fair world. The people that I know whose parents paid for everything do not seem to have the same success. They're not battle tested. And when they've finished school after being coddled, they can't seem to find a job. Ironic? Nah, just sad. Believe me, if you want it bad enough you can finish without being subsidized by the government. I know many people that did. And most were not able to get any assistance from anyone. Some are still paying off student loans, but they have good jobs and work hard.
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hackashaq
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Post by hackashaq on Dec 12, 2016 10:52:15 GMT -8
I guess my question then is do we just leave the "regular" folk by the wayside? Are they just doomed to perpetual poverty? It used to be that those who couldn't participate at the upper levels of society could still earn a decent wage and benefits and have a solid middle class life. They also had the hope their children could rise above.
Those jobs are largely gone. What's left are minimum wage jobs, and without growth in wages at this level, the middle class is now gone. Look around, these minimum wage jobs are no longer the domain of summer jobs held by teenagers.
Look at Costco....a discount retail operation. They offer their employees real wages and benefits, time off, and they promote from within. And they make a killing and sell quality products and deep discounts. They realize their workers are also their customers.
Are we saying that as the richest country in the world, we can't standardize this practice? We just don't want to give everybody a fighting chance?
I grew up in a family of 6 kids and a grandmother. My parents fought and struggled and put all 6 of their kids to college and then graduate school. We lived for awhile in a two bedroom apartment. I slept in a fold out couch bed with my grandmother and sister because there was no room.
When I look back on it, I don't know how we did it. But having a working wage, benefits, Medicare/Medicaid/MediCal helped immensely. But we are also very lucky.
We have a cleaner come to our house, her husband is our gardener. They work so hard....and yet for these people to be called a problem....for people like this to be denied a working wage...it's not the right thing to do for a society as rich as the US has become. This isn't what society should be about....winner takes all.
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Post by Fanofish on Dec 12, 2016 11:17:10 GMT -8
I guess my question then is do we just leave the "regular" folk by the wayside? Are they just doomed to perpetual poverty? It used to be that those who couldn't participate at the upper levels of society could still earn a decent wage and benefits and have a solid middle class life. They also had the hope their children could rise above. Those jobs are largely gone. What's left are minimum wage jobs, and without growth in wages at this level, the middle class is now gone. Look around, these minimum wage jobs are no longer the domain of summer jobs held by teenagers. Look at Costco....a discount retail operation. They offer their employees real wages and benefits, time off, and they promote from within. And they make a killing and sell quality products and deep discounts. They realize their workers are also their customers. Are we saying that as the richest country in the world, we can't standardize this practice? We just don't want to give everybody a fighting chance? I grew up in a family of 6 kids and a grandmother. My parents fought and struggled and put all 6 of their kids to college and then graduate school. We lived for awhile in a two bedroom apartment. I slept in a fold out couch bed with my grandmother and sister because there was no room. When I look back on it, I don't know how we did it. But having a working wage, benefits, Medicare/Medicaid/MediCal helped immensely. But we are also very lucky. We have a cleaner come to our house, her husband is our gardener. They work so hard....and yet for these people to be called a problem....for people like this to be denied a working wage...it's not the right thing to do for a society as rich as the US has become. This isn't what society should be about....winner takes all. You know how you did it? Your parents. Your parents have the character to not live beyond their means which meant 6 kids in a 2 bedroom apartment. As well, your parents had the work ethic and focus to always make sure there was a place to live, food on the table and funds to help pay their children's education. Then on the other end of the spectrum we have people having as many children as possible to get as much government assistance as possible. Oftentimes, their focus is not on their children and giving them the best opportunity for success like you had. The richest country in the world is borrowing money at an alarming rate. Your house cleaner and her husband have the opportunity to own their own businesses and create income based on their success in business. I know of a number of people in this trade that have done extremely well. They can run their businesses as they see fit. We can't have these opportunities and expect the government to keep everyone above water. I wish that could work. It's just not realistic. People want businesses to fork over higher minimum wages, but are unhappy when those same companies have to lay people off to make sure their companies can continue. Costco's stock has quadrupled over the last 8 years. Not all companies are in Costco's position. Kudos to Costco, but to assume all companies are in this situation is folly. Again, congratulations on having a disciplined family that taught you how to succeed in a difficult world. That tutelage is far more valuable than raising the minimum wage. imo
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hackashaq
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Post by hackashaq on Dec 12, 2016 14:46:18 GMT -8
Our family worked hard, yes. But we were one sickness, one tragedy, one bad luck step away from disaster.
Not everyone is that lucky, no matter how hard they work. I don't believe that society should leave these people behind.
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Post by shopson67 on Dec 13, 2016 15:13:12 GMT -8
So, the 18 year old who can't support himself with his minimum wage job is now supposed to pay for school and support himself? How is that going to happen? Entitlement issues. How is that supposed to happen? Well, each situation is different Shop. This view that the government is supposed to answer your question "So, the 18 year old who can't support himself with his minimum wage job is now supposed to pay for school and support himself? How is that going to happen?" is a big part of the problem. The fact that you look to our government to answer that question is in fact the problem. One cannot have the benefits of capitalism/democracy and expect a socialist government to pay for their healthcare, education, food and housing. There's no perfect answer. Life's not fair. It's hard. Working through your education and paying your own way is incredibly difficult. But the people I know that did finish have the character and work ethic to succeed in this highly competitive, not very fair world. The people that I know whose parents paid for everything do not seem to have the same success. They're not battle tested. And when they've finished school after being coddled, they can't seem to find a job. Ironic? Nah, just sad. Believe me, if you want it bad enough you can finish without being subsidized by the government. I know many people that did. And most were not able to get any assistance from anyone. Some are still paying off student loans, but they have good jobs and work hard. You missed my point. The 18 year old should be able to support himself on the minimum wage job. Expecting him to better his situation by supporting himself through college when minimum wage does not support a single human being is ludicrous. Increasing the minimum wage is much more important in my eyes than easing the costs of college. Bernie's pie-in-the-sky plans to make college free are a huge reason why he wasn't the nominee IMO. Obama can't get the most common-sense changes through the house and Senate, but Bernie's going to pass free college? On a separate note, I pity the person that has to clean up Trump's mess in 4 years. He continues to appoint people that either have no experience in their upcoming role, or are the very antithesis of who should helm that department. I guess he's emptying the swamp right into his cabinet.
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hackashaq
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Post by hackashaq on Dec 13, 2016 16:59:13 GMT -8
Trump pulled a bait and switch. The people who voted for him and put him over the top are the very people who are gonna get royally screwed based on all the crazy appointments he's making.
Billionaires who don't give a rats ass about anybody except themselves and their money.
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Post by Fanofish on Dec 14, 2016 9:36:08 GMT -8
Our family worked hard, yes. But we were one sickness, one tragedy, one bad luck step away from disaster. Not everyone is that lucky, no matter how hard they work. I don't believe that society should leave these people behind. Society is not leaving these people behind. 99% of the population is one tragedy, one bad luck step away from disaster. It wasn't luck bro. Sure bad things happen. Sometimes to very good people. If everyone had the approach your parents did this topic would be moot. You can't just lie down and let the government take care of you afraid something bad might happen. Your parents worked hard to give their children the best opportunity for success. They didn't cry or ask for someone to keep them above water. They were disciplined and made it work. Just goes to show that you don't need to be privileged to be successful.
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Post by Fanofish on Dec 14, 2016 9:38:26 GMT -8
Trump pulled a bait and switch. The people who voted for him and put him over the top are the very people who are gonna get royally screwed based on all the crazy appointments he's making. Billionaires who don't give a rats ass about anybody except themselves and their money. The people that made the difference and put him over the top are the people that didn't like either candidate. Data show that 75%+ of this group voted for Trump. So these people that put him over the top seemingly just picked the lesser of two evils.
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