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Post by lakeshow on Sept 10, 2024 18:55:43 GMT -8
Not even watching the debate.
Trump does what we all know he would do—just lie all night. The only way to compete with him on a debate stage is to mimic nonsense in a loud voice that would make for great sound bites. No politician (other than Trump) knows how to do that because that’s not how they prepare for debates.
We’ll see how it all plays out in the next couple weeks.
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Post by samadams10 on Sept 10, 2024 19:37:48 GMT -8
Agree with you 2b. They advertised her as a tough litigator who will prosecute the case against him but she came across as a traditional politician sticking to her talking points and same old tired stories about central park 5 and apartment discrimination. Not saying those were not important issues at their time but why go back 40 years when he has given so much new material. She didn't even retort him on Orban and Hillary already used those 70s and 80s events and lost. Weak!
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Post by shaolinfighter on Sept 10, 2024 19:39:06 GMT -8
Kamala wasn't prepared well enough and/or isn't a good debater. Trump won this round but I don't think his performance was good or great either. Kamala during her answers seemed like she had mostly all rehearsed talking points. Keyword seemed - you can't come across like that though and that's where Trump has the edge on the debate stage. On the other hand I thought from a debate standpoint Trump let Kamala dictate the conversation too much and missed opportunities to dunk on her. He didn't seem as sharp and that's probably why Harris campaign has immediately said they'd like another debate for a second crack at him.
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Post by lakeshow on Sept 10, 2024 21:16:30 GMT -8
Too much is being put on this debate.
Trump’s people saying he won, Kamala’s team says they won. I watched some of it after it was over live. From what I saw, I think Kamala certainly held her own as she baited him left and right and he took the bait just about every time. Dumbass said that immigrants are eating the dogs and cats of citizens in some city in Ohio on national tv. Another lie that was quickly debunked. That had to be in her playbook tonight. Nonetheless, these debates largely don’t determine who wins the presidency. I think it will do Kamala some good to have more interviews to bring more clarity as to what her plans are to win over the undecided voters. And she really needs to win Pennsylvania at all costs. Trump and especially Vance needs to talk less, but at the same time they can’t afford to not be out there campaigning.
I still think this is Kamala’s election to lose and still has the advantage imo. Trump is not adding to his base—a point I keep making over and over, while Kamala’s trajectory is higher than his and she is winning over more independent voters over time. There is more work she has to do though as there is still more people she has to reach and convince.
Let’s see how things play out over the next couple weeks.
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Post by history2b on Sept 11, 2024 13:39:42 GMT -8
Too much is being put on this debate. Trump’s people saying he won, Kamala’s team says they won. I watched some of it after it was over live. From what I saw, I think Kamala certainly held her own as she baited him left and right and he took the bait just about every time. Dumbass said that immigrants are eating the dogs and cats of citizens in some city in Ohio on national tv. Another lie that was quickly debunked. That had to be in her playbook tonight. Nonetheless, these debates largely don’t determine who wins the presidency. I think it will do Kamala some good to have more interviews to bring more clarity as to what her plans are to win over the undecided voters. And she really needs to win Pennsylvania at all costs. Trump and especially Vance needs to talk less, but at the same time they can’t afford to not be out there campaigning. I still think this is Kamala’s election to lose and still has the advantage imo. Trump is not adding to his base—a point I keep making over and over, while Kamala’s trajectory is higher than his and she is winning over more independent voters over time. There is more work she has to do though as there is still more people she has to reach and convince. Let’s see how things play out over the next couple weeks. But Terence she’s not giving interviews or providing clarity on her positions at this point because she doesn’t have any that are any different from Joe Biden. She knows her platform is a continuation of his platform and if she says so Trump will simply rail against more Joe Biden-isms. If Joe’s economy was working for working people, working people wouldn’t oppose that. But it doesn’t, it’s corporate America who is winning and winning big in this economy. The same would be more true if Trump were in charge because he’d continue corporate servitude plus add more top 5% tax cuts which would further increase the deficit and add more debt. He is the self proclaimed “King of debt.” But it’s an election year and the morons of America ignore reality to follow the theater of candidates. Last night wasn’t a vision into what can and will be done over the next 4 years it was entertainment. Americans, however, vote based on entertainment and the illusion of results. That’s crystal clear with the Democratic Party right now where Kamala has been propped up without a platform, without a primary, without inter party debates and discussions. We’re past that point as a culture, it’s all farce and spectacle now with predetermined candidates and results. So we live in this 2 sided world where half of the corporate media props up their candidate and the other half does the same. Who is right? Neither. It’s all latent propaganda now. It’s up to the individual to see through these illusions and truthfully most people aren’t equipped to do so. They have too much faith in the system. Kamala had an opportunity to ko Trump last night and failed imo. She was scripted and came across as not genuine. Trump as vile as he is, comes across as genuine in his beliefs and that has been kryptonite to all opponents thus far. He rightfully blasted inflation but he didn’t offer a plan on how to combat it. Kamala failed to press him on how he’d do it. She just smugly shook her head like it wasn’t really an issue. Why not press him on his plans? Because she can’t articulate her own which puts her at a disadvantage in that game. Barack could Kobe Bryant cross over dribble and dunk on Trump because he is by far the most gifted orator of our generation but Kamala is not even close. Bernie Sanders could Larry Bird bully ball Trump off the court but he’s not permitted to be there. Debates absolutely matter, if they didn’t they wouldn’t take place. Most people have made up their minds on the matter but there are still a few tens of thousands in the 5/6 “battleground states” have not. We are all prisoners in the fight for the support and belief of those imbeciles. The “greatest democracy in the world” all in the hands of a few thousand low iq morons because of an archaic contrived “democratic” system.
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Post by history2b on Sept 11, 2024 14:47:11 GMT -8
On Trump’s lies:
The media and left wing are having a field day mocking Trump’s racist rant against Haitians eating people’s pets in Ohio which he claimed without evidence but that was just a meaningless old man incoherent rant.
A couple of real lies of consequence that went unchallenged by Kamala and ignored by the left media today were:
1) His Covid response failure in 2020. Kamala called it a failure but didn’t point out facts to support it. Trump claimed “100 million people died in 1917 pandemic” therefore he succeeded in his response. First off 50 million died in that pandemic and less than 1 million were Americans, roughly 675000. That is 1.35% of worldwide deaths.
Covid the story is much different. 7 million deaths worldwide as of today and 1.2 million are Americans. That’s 17% of worldwide deaths. That is abject failure on the part of the United States and Trump is absolutely partly responsible.
2) Germany tried to move away from coal energy and it failed. WRONG! Germany has been moving away from coal and fossil fuels for years and are currently 50% renewable (far beyond the U.S.) and claim to be fully renewable by 2038.
These lies are way more important and consequential than false claims of pet eating but this is how Trump wins petty arguments. Diversion arguments that are irrelevant but elicit the majority of attention and response.
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Post by lakeshow on Sept 11, 2024 16:03:16 GMT -8
We're never going to get anything as clear or specific from either candidate as we would want unfortunately, that's politics. But to expect them to be crystal clear and be actually truthful about it in a debate is simply being naive imo.
So you think Kamala's economic policies are going to be the same as Biden's? Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have an obligation to sit down and articulate what they are to folks who want to know. You may not like them, I may not like them, but it is what it is if she's going to win the election.
And yes, I agree that debates are largely for entertainment, that's why I don't watch them. Because I'm not interested in watching something that is supposed to be serious that has turned into a circus. That said, I do believe they influence how people vote, but I do not believe they ultimately determine the outcome of an election (see the 2012 election when the public largely said Obama got smacked around in the 1st debate against Romney, but did marginally better in the 2nd debate). The only two exceptions I make here is the 1960 election when Kennedy went up against Nixon in which Nixon looked so horrific while Kennedy looked so good (it was the first televised debate) that it actually changed public opinion in Kennedy's favor even though he was largely deficient in political experience compared to Nixon. And the second exception is what happened to Biden in the first debate this year. Biden's performance was so bad that Trump was a virtual lock to win in 2024. Thankfully the Dems recognized that and pushed him out the presidential race.
All that said, ya'll have known exactly where I have stood with Trump since November 12, 2016. I'm probably the most anti-Trump person you'll ever meet and probably the most anti-Trump person on this dam message board. And that will never change. And there's certainly a lot to be said about the many, many great points you bring up 2b about the entire infrastructure of the American political system. But at the end of the day, Donald Trump is the most dangerous man in America (maybe followed by Elon Musk) and I'm personally not going to let what "should be" get in the way of "what is". And the reality is that if this maniac is elected again, this time he will have the tools and knowledge to completely dismantle the guardrail of what is left of this democracy. That's more important than even the economy to me. If you don't have a fair democratic system, then who gives a rats ass about the economy. He is a direct threat to democratic institutions and to every single American whether they support him or not. So whatever Kamala's shortcomings are is a candidate and hopefully future president, they are a distant second of my concerns when I compare the reality of another Trump term. And if the entire political system is going to crash, I would rather have it all come down under someone who is fit to be a president rather than a man who cares nothing about anyone else other than himself.
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Post by history2b on Sept 11, 2024 17:14:13 GMT -8
I’d say we’re pretty equally anti Trump even if I’m not going to bend other truths for the Dems just because of that. The Dems have been blowing it for too long now for me to do so.
The fact of the matter is that the whole ship can come crashing down on either candidate although I think more damage would be done by Trump and his decision making in WW3 scenarios should strike fear in not only every American but every human being. I am positive he would nuke China in a strike first scenario that is absolutely looming. Maybe not before 2028 but no one has the crystal ball to say for sure.
However; the deregulation of the various economic levers ALWAYS bring unprecedented accumulation of wealth followed by a “correction” (crash) of the system. This has been true since the 18th century all the way through modern day. If that happens to Kamala it’s over for her and the house will impeach. Since the current Dems aren’t offering a counter measured platform to protect the average American, most of the population is at risk, regardless.
The part of about the Great Depression many people in modern day get wrong is that it wasn’t simply a big crash then a repaired economy. It was years and years of wealth disparity, followed by years of crisis, followed by the big crash, followed by year and years of doing everything except socialist plans to fix it, followed by a deeper depression, followed by Roosevelt turning to the oligarchy and saying “[if we don’t enact various socialist policies there will be a revolution]” (written in his memoirs) followed by the New Deal and the greatest middle class expansion in the history of the world.
We are somewhere around that phase of the government continuing to do everything but socialist policy currently and the Dems and Repubs are unified in that plan. The longer the Dems hold out on revolutionary change, the longer the despot characters will rise from the right claiming to be the hero to fix all, delivering nothing. It happened in Yugoslavia this way post Balkan wars.
For all we know Elon Musk could be the next Trump. We are not out of the woods by averting Trump this cycle although we’d likely be out of the woods with him.
Kamala is selling hope but it’s not 2008 and she’s not Barack. He had an opportunity to completely change America with a unified house and senate and he chose to bail out Wall Street and big auto instead. That has set the stage for where we stand today. And I also personally blame him for the rise of Trump on a level because while I’ve never said so aloud I fully believe that the event he where he spoke in maybe 2014? and he mocked Trump who was in the audience for his criticisms of him (Obama) in office and mocked the Apprentice, is the moment that inspired Trump to run for office. That humiliation is what inspires narcissists more than anything imo.
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Post by samadams10 on Sept 11, 2024 17:48:48 GMT -8
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Post by history2b on Sept 11, 2024 17:52:27 GMT -8
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Post by lakeshow on Sept 12, 2024 6:25:53 GMT -8
I’d say we’re pretty equally anti Trump even if I’m not going to bend other truths for the Dems just because of that. The Dems have been blowing it for too long now for me to do so. The fact of the matter is that the whole ship can come crashing down on either candidate although I think more damage would be done by Trump and his decision making in WW3 scenarios should strike fear in not only every American but every human being. I am positive he would nuke China in a strike first scenario that is absolutely looming. Maybe not before 2028 but no one has the crystal ball to say for sure. However; the deregulation of the various economic levers ALWAYS bring unprecedented accumulation of wealth followed by a “correction” (crash) of the system. This has been true since the 18th century all the way through modern day. If that happens to Kamala it’s over for her and the house will impeach. Since the current Dems aren’t offering a counter measured platform to protect the average American, most of the population is at risk, regardless. The part of about the Great Depression many people in modern day get wrong is that it wasn’t simply a big crash then a repaired economy. It was years and years of wealth disparity, followed by years of crisis, followed by the big crash, followed by year and years of doing everything except socialist plans to fix it, followed by a deeper depression, followed by Roosevelt turning to the oligarchy and saying “[if we don’t enact various socialist policies there will be a revolution]” (written in his memoirs) followed by the New Deal and the greatest middle class expansion in the history of the world. We are somewhere around that phase of the government continuing to do everything but socialist policy currently and the Dems and Repubs are unified in that plan. The longer the Dems hold out on revolutionary change, the longer the despot characters will rise from the right claiming to be the hero to fix all, delivering nothing. It happened in Yugoslavia this way post Balkan wars. For all we know Elon Musk could be the next Trump. We are not out of the woods by averting Trump this cycle although we’d likely be out of the woods with him. Kamala is selling hope but it’s not 2008 and she’s not Barack. He had an opportunity to completely change America with a unified house and senate and he chose to bail out Wall Street and big auto instead. That has set the stage for where we stand today. And I also personally blame him for the rise of Trump on a level because while I’ve never said so aloud I fully believe that the event he where he spoke in maybe 2014? and he mocked Trump who was in the audience for his criticisms of him (Obama) in office and mocked the Apprentice, is the moment that inspired Trump to run for office. That humiliation is what inspires narcissists more than anything imo. We both agree that Obama is in part a reason for the rise of Trump, but for totally different reasons. I have no problem with what Obama said about Orange Face at the roasting because Obama never started any beef with Trump. Trump started that beef by trying to undermine his legitimacy as president with that birther BS. A criticism that had no merit btw, just another conspiracy theory. So if Trump was pissed about that then he had it coming. And what Obama joked about wasn’t anything nearly close to the offenses Trump said about him. I also don’t believe that that event alone was what made Trump run. He himself said he had been thinking about it for some time. Maybe that pushed him closer to running, but if that roasting alone pushed him over the edge, then one has to ask themselves was his intentions to run for president rooted in the right place from the jump. All that s*** he said about Obama—hell yeah he had it coming and rightfully so!! Obama winning 2 terms as a black president along with the social uprising of the Trayvon Martin shooting, other high profile police shootings, and the beginning of the movement against Confederate monuments in the South, and perhaps most importantly, the rise of the Tea Party movement that certainly had a racist dynamic within it played a much larger role in Trump’s rise than any joke Obama said about Trump at a fundraising dinner.
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hackashaq
::| Basketball Guru |::
Posts: 3,292
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Post by hackashaq on Sept 12, 2024 11:22:59 GMT -8
Not sure why we are gaslighting Obama for the rise in Trump other than he triggered a lot of nasent racism that always existed underneath the surface of American society and politics.
When these people saw a black president and first family, they had a complete mental breakdown, which Trump exploited to great effect. Remember he was the original birther. So if Obama made fun of Trump, I think that's fair game.
Where the Democratic party wen wrong....we can write a treatise on and no one will agree.
What I do know is that Trump is dangerous. He has vengeance on his mind. In terms of history, acquiescing to a leader out for political vengeance, and with a hatred for perceived outsiders, doesn't turn out well.
I believe he is that dangerous, and I worry that people are just whistling past the danger signs.
At some point, when someone keeps telling you who they are, you should start to believe them.
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Post by history2b on Sept 12, 2024 12:18:45 GMT -8
Not sure why we are gaslighting Obama for the rise in Trump other than he triggered a lot of nasent racism that always existed underneath the surface of American society and politics. When these people saw a black president and first family, they had a complete mental breakdown, which Trump exploited to great effect. Remember he was the original birther. So if Obama made fun of Trump, I think that's fair game.Where the Democratic party wen wrong....we can write a treatise on and no one will agree. What I do know is that Trump is dangerous. He has vengeance on his mind. In terms of history, acquiescing to a leader out for political vengeance, and with a hatred for perceived outsiders, doesn't turn out well. I believe he is that dangerous, and I worry that people are just whistling past the danger signs. At some point, when someone keeps telling you who they are, you should start to believe them. But that’s simply not true hack. Hilary Clinton and her political operatives are the origins of the Barack birther slander, something they put out in the 2008 primaries after their bid to get Hilary the nomination was collapsing. The Republicans simply pounced on it and amplified it ever since. I was skeptical to believe that when I first learned of it but after dealing with Hilary operatives first hand when I was doing work for the Bernie campaign in 2016 I saw how vile and low they really are. That said, Barack can have “every right” as you and Terence have said to slander back but I’m saying that has not come without consequence. Was it worth it to humiliate Trump in that White House Correspondences Dinner to have him where he stands now? I say no, and it was beneath the office of the president. Of course I laughed when I saw it back then and Barack surely couldn’t have anticipated what would come later but Trump wasn’t the only one claiming birther bullshit. Lots of right wing figures were. Of course the rise of demagoguery had other factors that made the situation ripe for the taking for Trump in 2015:16 like what Terence said about the Tea Party and also the latent racism and animosity brewing over the first black First Family but concurrently failed establishment institutions across all levels of government created that environment as well. The Democratic Party cheated for Hilary Clinton in 2016 at the Convention. It was simply her time, a woman’s time, blah blah. To hell with what the voters actually voted. When the superdelegates votes were changed from Bernie to Clinton in various districts across the US even though their voters democratically voted “Bernard” they cheated. Debbie Wasserman Schulz is a CUNT. In 2020 when Bernie took New Hampshire primary the DNC colluded once again to keep him off as the nominee pouring ALL their resources into a near geriatric Joe Biden. Trump had to be defeated and Joe got that job done but it did not win the war, clearly or we wouldn’t be standing where we stand today with Joe pushed out and yet another primary rigged for a hand picked preferred donor class candidate and Trump on the other side waiting. That’s 3 straight election cycles of anti democratic activity from the “Democrats.” If our criticisms of Trump and the Republicans mean anything then we HAVE TO own up to the failures of the Dems. There is no other way.
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Post by lakeshow on Sept 15, 2024 13:37:38 GMT -8
Not sure why we are gaslighting Obama for the rise in Trump other than he triggered a lot of nasent racism that always existed underneath the surface of American society and politics. When these people saw a black president and first family, they had a complete mental breakdown, which Trump exploited to great effect. Remember he was the original birther. So if Obama made fun of Trump, I think that's fair game.Where the Democratic party wen wrong....we can write a treatise on and no one will agree. What I do know is that Trump is dangerous. He has vengeance on his mind. In terms of history, acquiescing to a leader out for political vengeance, and with a hatred for perceived outsiders, doesn't turn out well. I believe he is that dangerous, and I worry that people are just whistling past the danger signs. At some point, when someone keeps telling you who they are, you should start to believe them. But that’s simply not true hack. Hilary Clinton and her political operatives are the origins of the Barack birther slander, something they put out in the 2008 primaries after their bid to get Hilary the nomination was collapsing. The Republicans simply pounced on it and amplified it ever since. I was skeptical to believe that when I first learned of it but after dealing with Hilary operatives first hand when I was doing work for the Bernie campaign in 2016 I saw how vile and low they really are. That said, Barack can have “every right” as you and Terence have said to slander back but I’m saying that has not come without consequence. Was it worth it to humiliate Trump in that White House Correspondences Dinner to have him where he stands now? I say no, and it was beneath the office of the president. Of course I laughed when I saw it back then and Barack surely couldn’t have anticipated what would come later but Trump wasn’t the only one claiming birther bullshit. Lots of right wing figures were. Of course the rise of demagoguery had other factors that made the situation ripe for the taking for Trump in 2015:16 like what Terence said about the Tea Party and also the latent racism and animosity brewing over the first black First Family but concurrently failed establishment institutions across all levels of government created that environment as well. The Democratic Party cheated for Hilary Clinton in 2016 at the Convention. It was simply her time, a woman’s time, blah blah. To hell with what the voters actually voted. When the superdelegates votes were changed from Bernie to Clinton in various districts across the US even though their voters democratically voted “Bernard” they cheated. Debbie Wasserman Schulz is a CUNT. In 2020 when Bernie took New Hampshire primary the DNC colluded once again to keep him off as the nominee pouring ALL their resources into a near geriatric Joe Biden. Trump had to be defeated and Joe got that job done but it did not win the war, clearly or we wouldn’t be standing where we stand today with Joe pushed out and yet another primary rigged for a hand picked preferred donor class candidate and Trump on the other side waiting. That’s 3 straight election cycles of anti democratic activity from the “Democrats.” If our criticisms of Trump and the Republicans mean anything then we HAVE TO own up to the failures of the Dems. There is no other way. 2b, that is not true. Hillary Clinton and her campaign did not start the birther conspiracy. I have taken some time to look into this myself and do the research before I responded to this. The research I have done concludes that it was a small group of hardcore Hillary supporters that believed this and tried to persuade the Hillary campaign to run with it. Everywhere I looked, I found no evidence that the campaign itself ran with this, in fact they straight out fired one individual who was a volunteer for the campaign for even suggesting this as a talking point. I posted several links to this issue at the bottom of my post. I'm not a Hillary fan but I'm not going to accuse her campaign for something they are not responsible for doing. The Trump campaign of course heard these rumors and Trump ate that up and used it in 2011 to undermine Obama's legitimacy as president. You may have dealt with Hillary operatives, and they may not have played exactly by the rules when it came to Bernie's influence in the 2016, but there is no evidence that I found that pins the unsubstantiated birtherism on Hillary Clinton. The roasting at the White House Correspondence dinner has been a tradition the White House has done for years. Presidents of both parties have done it, so I also don't agree with singling out Obama for jokes he made at Trump's expense. That can't be "beneath the office" if it's a part of what the office does every year. Trump was going to run for president regardless of whether Obama joked about him or not. Trust and believe, jokes or no jokes, Trump was running for president and how he turned out to govern had nothing with Obama's jabs at that dinner. The factors I pointed to in my last previous post had WAY MORE influence in the outcome of the 2016 election. Nothing else compares to it. I would even consider disgruntled progressives who may have felt burned by the DNC in Bernie's treatment a much more credible argument as a factor in how the 2016 election turned out than a joke at the White House Correspondence Dinner. It was Trump who amplified it from 2011 until 2015 when he ran for president, then clearly ignored it once he was a candidate and never apologized once for that falsehood that clearly put Obama's family in danger. Michelle Obama has spoken to that on many occasions. Links to the origin of the birtherism conspiracy theories: Note: I tried to find sources that were as objective as possible. So, I didn't get these from extreme left-wing pro-Hillary sources. The link that's probably the most biased in favor of Hillary would be ABC, but even with that one all four links are saying the same thing about this false notion that Hillary started the birtherism conspiracy theory. www.politico.com/story/2016/09/birther-movement-founder-trump-clinton-228304www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/sep/16/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/www.factcheck.org/2015/07/was-hillary-clinton-the-original-birther/abcnews.go.com/Politics/fact-checking-trumps-claim-clinton-started-birther-movement/story?id=42147995
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Post by history2b on Sept 15, 2024 14:27:27 GMT -8
Sorry brother, I love you but there’s no way will I bend on this one about Clinton. Like I said, she and her political operatives are vile people. They’re anti democratic, elitist cunt bags. And while they’ve worked hard to wipe their hands of this since 2016, I don’t buy it because like I mentioned, I’ve dealt with these people firsthand. David Plouffe Obama’s campaign chief said “the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we’ve seen from either party in this election.” in 2008 after Clinton aides began circulating this photo: www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna23337141Politico reported on it in Feb 2008: www.politico.com/story/2008/02/obama-slams-smear-photo-008667Before this in Dec 2007 Clinton dismissed an aide who along with numerous other Clinton supporters, were forwarding and posting emails claiming Obama was Muslim and sent by “madrassas” to infiltrate the U.S. on behalf of radical Islam. Politico wrote about it all again in 2011: www.politico.com/story/2011/04/birtherism-where-it-all-began-053563When the Clinton campaign tries to claim it was just some followers of Clinton, is about as true as when Donald Trump says he doesn’t know anything about Project 2025. Blame it on someone else. I don’t buy it and never will. Clinton and her people are shameful human beings.
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Post by history2b on Sept 15, 2024 14:51:13 GMT -8
Another assassination attempt on Trump today.
Ryan Wesley Routh, reported to be an ardent supporter of Ukraine, 58 years old was apprehended on a nearby highway from Trumps golf course in Florida where he left behind an AK 47 and GoPro camera.
Wild that this would happen again before the election, and yet another sign that things are just not right in America.
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Post by lakeshow on Sept 16, 2024 10:46:30 GMT -8
Sorry brother, I love you but there’s no way will I bend on this one about Clinton. Like I said, she and her political operatives are vile people. They’re anti democratic, elitist cunt bags. And while they’ve worked hard to wipe their hands of this since 2016, I don’t buy it because like I mentioned, I’ve dealt with these people firsthand. David Plouffe Obama’s campaign chief said “the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we’ve seen from either party in this election.” in 2008 after Clinton aides began circulating this photo: www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna23337141Politico reported on it in Feb 2008: www.politico.com/story/2008/02/obama-slams-smear-photo-008667Before this in Dec 2007 Clinton dismissed an aide who along with numerous other Clinton supporters, were forwarding and posting emails claiming Obama was Muslim and sent by “madrassas” to infiltrate the U.S. on behalf of radical Islam. Politico wrote about it all again in 2011: www.politico.com/story/2011/04/birtherism-where-it-all-began-053563When the Clinton campaign tries to claim it was just some followers of Clinton, is about as true as when Donald Trump says he doesn’t know anything about Project 2025. Blame it on someone else. I don’t buy it and never will. Clinton and her people are shameful human beings. No offense taken brother. I know where your heart is and where you stand, that's why I enjoy going back and forth with you. I'll check out the links you sent in the spirit of being completely open-minded about this issue. At the end of the day though, we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one.
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hackashaq
::| Basketball Guru |::
Posts: 3,292
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Post by hackashaq on Sept 17, 2024 13:08:12 GMT -8
Not sure why we are gaslighting Obama for the rise in Trump other than he triggered a lot of nasent racism that always existed underneath the surface of American society and politics. When these people saw a black president and first family, they had a complete mental breakdown, which Trump exploited to great effect. Remember he was the original birther. So if Obama made fun of Trump, I think that's fair game.Where the Democratic party wen wrong....we can write a treatise on and no one will agree. What I do know is that Trump is dangerous. He has vengeance on his mind. In terms of history, acquiescing to a leader out for political vengeance, and with a hatred for perceived outsiders, doesn't turn out well. I believe he is that dangerous, and I worry that people are just whistling past the danger signs. At some point, when someone keeps telling you who they are, you should start to believe them. But that’s simply not true hack. Hilary Clinton and her political operatives are the origins of the Barack birther slander, something they put out in the 2008 primaries after their bid to get Hilary the nomination was collapsing. The Republicans simply pounced on it and amplified it ever since. I was skeptical to believe that when I first learned of it but after dealing with Hilary operatives first hand when I was doing work for the Bernie campaign in 2016 I saw how vile and low they really are. That said, Barack can have “every right” as you and Terence have said to slander back but I’m saying that has not come without consequence. Was it worth it to humiliate Trump in that White House Correspondences Dinner to have him where he stands now? I say no, and it was beneath the office of the president. Of course I laughed when I saw it back then and Barack surely couldn’t have anticipated what would come later but Trump wasn’t the only one claiming birther bullshit. Lots of right wing figures were. Of course the rise of demagoguery had other factors that made the situation ripe for the taking for Trump in 2015:16 like what Terence said about the Tea Party and also the latent racism and animosity brewing over the first black First Family but concurrently failed establishment institutions across all levels of government created that environment as well. The Democratic Party cheated for Hilary Clinton in 2016 at the Convention. It was simply her time, a woman’s time, blah blah. To hell with what the voters actually voted. When the superdelegates votes were changed from Bernie to Clinton in various districts across the US even though their voters democratically voted “Bernard” they cheated. Debbie Wasserman Schulz is a CUNT. In 2020 when Bernie took New Hampshire primary the DNC colluded once again to keep him off as the nominee pouring ALL their resources into a near geriatric Joe Biden. Trump had to be defeated and Joe got that job done but it did not win the war, clearly or we wouldn’t be standing where we stand today with Joe pushed out and yet another primary rigged for a hand picked preferred donor class candidate and Trump on the other side waiting. That’s 3 straight election cycles of anti democratic activity from the “Democrats.” If our criticisms of Trump and the Republicans mean anything then we HAVE TO own up to the failures of the Dems. There is no other way. I don't care who "started it". I only mentioned that Trump was an original birther. He was early on that train. But even that is not the point. The point was that Trump is/was representative of the group of Americans that had always had racist tendencies and really never lost them over the years. His birther stance was a cynical, but effective, means to tap into that latent racism and become the next President after Obama. That is NOT a coincidence. And the GOP, the power hungry moron-cabal that it is, recognized that power and latched onto it with all its might....and still do. Trump took this and made it the seething central tenant of the Republican Party. So for me, all the quibbling about this policy and that policy is missing the point. This is an existential threat to democracy in any and all its forms in the US. I am a student of history, and you can study the signs fascism, and it often starts with racism and a galvanizing hatred of "the other." It then morphs into a political movement, steeped in conservative, home-grown values, and a deep love of a past that either never existed or was only beneficial to the select few. People will latch onto this like flies to s*it, and the political elite will tap into that thinking it as a means to an end, with the belief that they can "control" or "temper" the extremist. Then these elites get devoured by this extremist wave, and then, that's all she wrote folks. Does this sound familiar?
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Post by history2b on Sept 17, 2024 15:13:08 GMT -8
Completely disagree with you and I guess Terence about whether it matters who started the racist lie about Barack Obama. I’m not giving Clinton a pass because she’s a Democrat. She engaged in dirty politics because she was losing and by starting something of that nature, also opened Pandora’s box. Where the wind took that sail after has had consequences. So why no accountability? Why the free pass?
I am a student of history as well and can see the parallels too but I think it should be obvious to everyone by now that if you’re going to fire the alarm about Trump for a 3rd straight presidential election cycle, 9 years and counting of his political onslaught, then the ideas of those who created his conditions ought to be examined and critiqued more seriously.
If the Democrats had even just halfway decent platform that actually helped working people theyd be winning elections by landslides and in control of both houses. Since they have elected to do corporate bidding first, maintain a war budget that exceeds all other expenditures combined, fail to fix healthcare and housing crises, they don’t have the mass support they should under the circumstances of what you described the alternative party. Rainbows and identity politics is not policy oriented politics. They’ve failed in delivering to the people and they are paying the consequences because of it.
Trump has a stronghold over people whom are neither rich or relatively educated and he’s done so by levying legitimate criticisms towards both establishment parties. The man who set out to kill him this week was a former supporter of his, someone who voted for him, lol. A healthy democracy doesn’t produce this, a broken one does. But no one wants to fix it, just lecture that we have to choose “the lesser of 2 evils.” Like I’ve been saying, that argument only works for so long and cannot become the permanent mantra.
Trump is trash, a fraud, a demagogue and would surely do unprecedented damage to America but Kamala pushing it along with a little stick doesn’t save us either. Democrats have abandoned democracy within their own party and are lecturing about saving democracy at the same time. That latent hypocrisy is how you lose permanently.
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Post by lakeshow on Sept 17, 2024 17:17:01 GMT -8
Completely disagree with you and I guess Terence about whether it matters who started the racist lie about Barack Obama. I’m not giving Clinton a pass because she’s a Democrat. She engaged in dirty politics because she was losing and by starting something of that nature, also opened Pandora’s box. Where the wind took that sail after has had consequences. So why no accountability? Why the free pass? I am a student of history as well and can see the parallels too but I think it should be obvious to everyone by now that if you’re going to fire the alarm about Trump for a 3rd straight presidential election cycle, 9 years and counting of his political onslaught, then the ideas of those who created his conditions ought to be examined and critiqued more seriously. If the Democrats had even just halfway decent platform that actually helped working people theyd be winning elections by landslides and in control of both houses. Since they have elected to do corporate bidding first, maintain a war budget that exceeds all other expenditures combined, fail to fix healthcare and housing crises, they don’t have the mass support they should under the circumstances of what you described the alternative party. Rainbows and identity politics is not policy oriented politics. They’ve failed in delivering to the people and they are paying the consequences because of it. Trump has a stronghold over people whom are neither rich or relatively educated and he’s done so by levying legitimate criticisms towards both establishment parties. The man who set out to kill him this week was a former supporter of his, someone who voted for him, lol. A healthy democracy doesn’t produce this, a broken one does. But no one wants to fix it, just lecture that we have to choose “the lesser of 2 evils.” Like I’ve been saying, that argument only works for so long and cannot become the permanent mantra. Trump is trash, a fraud, a demagogue and would surely do unprecedented damage to America but Kamala pushing it along with a little stick doesn’t save us either. Democrats have abandoned democracy within their own party and are lecturing about saving democracy at the same time. That latent hypocrisy is how you lose permanently. I never said it didn't matter who started it. I just don't agree with you on how the birtherism got started and how it grew into a monumental racist conspiracy theory. Again, the ugly ingredients for Trump's rise was already there just beneath the surface, it just took a someone to be that spark to unleash that racism and xenophobia and to normalize it. Trump was that person to do it and make everything that is ugly central to his campaign by extension the Republican Party.
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